19 July 2011 early edition/transcript/Part 18
Part 18 DAMIAN COLLINS: I would like to ask questions about the Milly Dowler case in particular. For the record, Mrs Brooks, you were editor of News of the World during the period of Milly Dowler's abduction and her subsequent murder. REBEKAH: That is correct. Q496 COLLINS: I have some specific questions I would like to ask you about this, but could you paint a picture for us of how a newspaper like News of the World goes about reporting such a big story? What would be the level of the editor, deputy editor and senior reporters in putting together and overseeing a story like that? REBEKAH: Any big story and, for the purpose of process, most stories start out with the reporter. That reporter may be being asked by the news editor to go to investigate a story, or they may have brought information about a story from their own contacts to the news editor. It is at that stage in a newspaper when the reporter and news editor discuss the veracity of the information, go out and check the allegations and come back with a more considered view. You can imagine that every newspaper gets a lot of information to the news desk and only a percentage—a very small percentage—makes it actually to publication. So there are many layers, from reporter to assistant news editor to news editor. Finally, the story will go to the back bench, which is the people who will oversee the subbing of the story, and the sub will often talk to the reporter directly, with questions and amendments to the copy. The lawyers are involved- ]The portion of the hearing that was dropped included the following: REBEKAH: -at this stage, and throughout the process, and the final decision on publication will be made by the editor—and where it is and how prominent it is. Obviously, Milly Dowler's disappearance was a terrible news story. It will have been covered by all newspapers, and for a very long time. The trial only finished—last month? Q497 COLLINS: But for something like this, would it be normal to expect that it would have been the editor, a senior member of the editorial staff on duty that day or the lawyers who would sign off on anything written about it because of the incredible sensitivity of the material? REBEKAH: That is probably true, yes. On any story, but particularly as you say on such a sensitive story, the lawyers would be heavily involved, talking to the reporters and the news editors—the news editors are the executives on the news desk—as to where the information came from or on the veracity of that information. Q498 COLLINS: How involved were you personally in the Milly Dowler case, as editor of the News of the World? REBEKAH: As I say, the story ran for a- [SMASH CUT TO SIMPSONS CLIP] KRUTSY THE CLOWN: I'm a nice guy! I'm a helluva guy! And tonight we honor you! Stop the music! OLBERMANN: What's happening? KRUSTY: Stop it! [COUNTDOWN STUDIO] OLBERMANN: We don't know what happened just there. I could give you a better answer than that if it were provided to me, but we're apparently switched over, as if ordained by fate, to an episode of The Simpsons, which we had no contractual- and there it is again still. This is of no use to us either. Thank you. Until we reestablish contact with London – or Krusty the Klown, whoever shows up first – if John Dean is still standing by in Los Angeles? Are you okay, or have you been replaced? DEAN: I am indeed. OLBERMANN: Alright, you haven't been replaced- DEAN: No, I'm not. OLBERMANN: -by another Fox comedy character, somebody perhaps from Family Guy. One thing that has been truly interesting about the Rebekah Brooks testimony: she's done this probably three times and had to be corrected, she corrected herself at least once. She's still speaking in the present tense about News International and at one point she started- she said "we," and corrected it to "them"- alright, now we- that interesting point having been made, unfortunately you don't get to comment on it, because the Krusty the Clown show has been cancelled. We're back to Rebekah Brooks. TO LIVE FEED REBEKAH: -very, very long time, so I will have been involved in the story over the many years, even when I was editor of The Sun. The Milly Dowler investigation and the pursuit of justice for Milly Dowler have been in the news for many, many years—nine years. Q499 COLLINS: The phase of your time at the News of the World is particularly pertinent to our hearing today. Would you say that the Milly Dowler case was a story you were more heavily involved in than other stories that took place during your editorship, simply because of the magnitude of the events and people's real shock and horror at what had happened? REBEKAH: Not particularly more or less involved. The one thing that I would say is that under my editorship we had a series of terrible and tragic news stories, starting with Sarah Payne, Milly Dowler's disappearance and subsequent murder and then of course the Soham cases. As you know, part of the main focus of my editorship of the News of the World was convincing Parliament that there needed to be radical changes to the Sex Offenders Act 1997 which came to be known as Sarah's law and were very similar to laws imposed in America under Megan's law. So I suppose, if I had a particular extra involvement in any of those stories, then it would have been on the basis that I was trying to push and campaign for readers' rights on the 10 pieces of legislation that we got through on Sarah's law, and campaigning for those to be put forward. Q500 COLLINS: When you gave evidence to the Committee in 2003, you referenced the Milly Dowler case as an example of how you thought that the press had worked particularly well with the police and the family liaison officers, and it was a view that was supported by Andy Coulson, who gave evidence with you on that day. I appreciate that this is quite a long time ago, but is that something you stand by now? You spoke about it when you gave evidence, but did you have a particular knowledge of the details of the case? REBEKAH: When I spoke about it in 2003, I was unaware of what I now know. However, in 2003, as far as I was concerned—which in the light of what we believe the allegations are now might sound, quite frankly, ridiculous, but at the time I believed it—both on the Milly Dowler case and in the Soham cases, the press had exercised huge caution, and had tried to respect the privacy of the families. For example, I remember that in Soham one member of the Press Association was sent to go to the village. I was referring to the fact that Fleet Street had actually come together and used the Press Complaints Commission code and adhered to it to respect the privacy of the families. Clearly, these allegations that came out two weeks ago, if true, are appalling and obviously contradict the statement that I made. Q501 COLLINS: As you say, in the context of what we now know, it does appear ridiculous, to use your word. When were you first aware that Milly Dowler's phone had been hacked? REBEKAH: I think it was last Monday or the Monday before. Q502 COLLINS: That was the first knowledge you had of it? REBEKAH: I heard of it when the story first broke in the media, I think, on Monday evening. Q503 COLLINS: Nothing was ever said to you at News of the World to suggest that Milly Dowler's phone had been hacked, and that that may have been carried out or authorised by an employee of News of the World? REBEKAH: Of course not, no. Q504 COLLINS: When were you aware that people at the News of the World gave information about what was on Milly Dowler's phone to the police to support their investigation? REBEKAH: At the moment—again, I will have to be slightly careful, but I want to be as open as possible. We saw the story at the same time that you all saw the story. My instant reaction, like everybody else's, was one of shock and disgust that a family who had suffered so much already had heard these allegations that clearly added immeasurably to their suffering. The first thing I did was write to Mr and Mrs Dowler with a full apology to say that we would get to the bottom of the allegations, and whether anyone, either representing the News of the World or authorised by a professional journalist at the News of the World, which I still find staggering to believe, was involved. If we find out that is true, I have every confidence that News International and the police will get to the bottom of that, which they should, as a priority. Q505 COLLINS: I appreciate your statement. But what I asked was when were you aware that the information that was passed to Surrey police resulted from the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone? Are you saying you were not aware of that until it was reported recently in the newspapers? REBEKAH: Yes. COLLINS: If it is the case that employees of the News of the World were personally sanctioned to hack Milly Dower's phone, essentially deleting e-mails from it; if they withheld that information from you, and then decided of their own volition to pass that information on to the police, that is what you are asking us to believe? Am I right in saying that? REBEKAH: Can you explain about passing it on to the police? COLLINS: Yes, if information held by employees of the News of the World relating to the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone was passed to the police to support their investigation, you said the first you knew about that was when it was reported in the newspapers. But it must be the case, therefore, that someone, without your knowledge, who was an employee of yours at News of the World, decided, without consulting the editor, to pass that on to the police. From your position, is that the case? Is that the chain of events as they must have existed? REBEKAH: I understand the question. I think it is important to say that obviously the Milly Dowler news story went on for many years and I had been editor of both the News of the World and The Sun while that investigation was ongoing. What you asked me, and what I thought you were referring to, was when did I first hear an allegation that Milly Dowler's phone or voice mails had been intercepted by either someone working for the News of the World or authorised by someone at the News of the World. The first time I ever heard that was two weeks ago. Q506 COLLINS: But with regard to information being passed to the police about the hacking of the phone? REBEKAH: I wrote to Surrey police immediately. My first port of call was to send Milly Dowler's family an unreserved apology on behalf of News International and to assure them that we would get to the bottom of it. Representatives then met with the Milly Dowler family lawyer almost immediately to try to get some more information, to see if there was anything we could do, look for or assist in this case. The third thing I did was write to Surrey police to say that, obviously, in the last nine years, if they had come across any information that supported these allegations, could they please either give it to the Metropolitan police's inquiry or share it with the management and standards committee at News International. I had a response from Surrey police at the end of last week, which is that because it was part of a criminal investigation, they couldn't help me. Q507 COLLINS: One of the points that I am trying to get to is that it would seem to us incredible that, potentially allegedly, someone employed by News of the World would take the decision themselves to pass information to the police that, however obtained, was the result of a newspaper investigation of which they were part, and that they did not consult the editor or senior members of staff. That seems incredible. REBEKAH: Is your allegation that someone on the News of the World knew that they had themselves, or authorised someone, to access the voice mails of Milly Dowler, and that they then told the police that they had accessed Milly Dowler's phone and passed on that information? Is that the allegation? Q508 COLLINS: Is there a chain of events that links the alleged hacking of the phone by someone at News of the World or authorised by News of the World to the passing to the police of information regarding what was on Milly Dowler's phone, and also, we have subsequently heard, the deletion of messages? That is what I was asking about. REBEKAH: On the allegations, either someone from the News of the World or someone authorised on the News of the World had accessed the voice mails of Milly Dowler is an allegation, an incredibly serious allegation, and one that appals us all. That is being investigated right now. When I first heard of it, it was two weeks ago. I'm sorry; that just how it is. Q509 COLLINS: It seems incredible that you, as editor, were so unaware of such fundamental issues to do with the investigation. REBEKAH: In some ways, I think the opposite. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would authorise, know, sanction or approve of anyone listening to the voicemails of Milly Dowler in those circumstances. I just don't know anyone who would think it was right and proper thing to do at this time, or at any time. I know we know a lot more now, but that is all I can tell you. Q510 COLLINS: This is potentially something that happened under your watch, as ever, so if it is proven that it was the case, would you take personal responsibility for what happened under your editorship of the newspaper? REBEKAH: I would take responsibility, absolutely. I really, really want to understand what happened. I think all of us do. Out of everything that I have heard of this case, I think that is probably the most shocking thing I had heard for a long time, and certainly the most shocking thing I had heard about potential journalists who worked for News International. Notes